March 16, 2019
<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/318
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support. Stay up to date with the latest events by subscribing to this calendar: https://xmr.ncrypt.sh/index.php/apps/calendar/p/8dP6z6XQDnkPREo4/Monero-Meetings
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
<el00ruobuob_[m]> Hello everyone
<midipoet> hey hey
<Xeagu__> Hey hey hey!
<Xeagu__> Welcome rehrar
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<sgp_> An enormous discussion on Monero’s PoW occurred in this issue. It’s a long read: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/316
<sgp_> A meeting has been scheduled for 24 March @ 17:00 UTC. Please read the other materials before participating in the meeting, since many ideas have already been discussed: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/315#issuecomment-473538744
<sgp_> h4sh3d created a new Rust Monero library: https://github.com/monero-rs/monero-rs
<sgp_> Monero had a successful network upgrade. Spent output lists are available on https://moneroblackball.com, though network impact was essentially 0, and you should make your own anyway.
<sgp_> There was an issue with the Ledger client. It is fixed with new versions.
<sgp_> We had a SPECIAL UPGRADE EDITION of the Coffee Chat, which ran for 2 hours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7TB7yr9enE
<monerobux> [ Monero Coffee Chat Special Upgrade Edition - 2019.03.09 - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
<sgp_> Does anyone else have community (non-workgroup) updates to share?
<el00ruobuob_[m]> I started updating the GUI-guide, any review are welcome
<ErCiccione[m]> Getmonero.org is available in two new languages: Dutch and Portuguese (Br)
<Xeagu__> I started to work with rehrar moving old, completed FFS proposals to the new CCS GitLab instance.
<midipoet> i handed in first final draft of the "Perspectives on Privacy" paper in for review. so its on the way!
<el00ruobuob_[m]> I have PRd a full update of getmonero.org roadmap (reviews are welcome here too)
<rehrar> I been working with people to get the OSticket/LiveHelperChat thing up. Someone got it to work. I'm impressed.
<parasew[m]> vienna/austria monero group getting active again after winter hibernation. we had a lot of afk things to do but had a great monero austria meetup. meetups will be more frequently now and we are setting up some workshops in the near future.
<rehrar> parasew[m]: read my thingy
<sgp_> if only there was a tool that allowed people to brag/complain about what they did that day….. :p https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/311
<oneiric_> work continues on tini2p
<dEBRUYNE> Trezor integration has been PRed to the GUI repo
<el00ruobuob_[m]> sgp_, shouldn't we start testing humhub online, to see if it suits us?
<sgp_> Any other community updates?
<Xeagu__> Welcome chowbungaman24
<dsc_> Yes, sec.
<dsc_> Last week i:
<dsc_> - Provided 6tb server to noncense research
<dsc_> - Wrote IRC bot to support monero related development, idling in #noncense-research-lab, #monero-site, #monero-gui
<dsc_> - Nearly finished a new history page in the GUI
<kinghat> i left you a twitch msg, dsc_. also dsc_ streams gooey dev. 😃
<sgp_> dsc_: did you or needmoney90 make the integration for the CCS here?
<dsc_> Oh yes, yep. It is idling here too, announcing CCS proposals when they're proposed
<sgp_> cool, thanks for that <3
<kinghat> here is a question about updates. what is the story for the release with all the fancy features?
<sgp_> kinghat: that's a great question
<sgp_> I don't have an excellent answer, but I'm trying to encourage this process to happen quickly
<Xeagu__> Welcome msvb-mob
<ErCiccione[m]> i'm still praying the gods of the code freeze for this release
<dEBRUYNE> Probably within a few weeks kinghat, sgp_
<pwrcycle> hi all
<sgp_> dEBRUYNE: do you know what we are waiting for?
<Xeagu__> Hey pwrcycle
<oneiric_> hi pwrcycle
<msvb-mob> Hi Xeagu__ Sorry for being late.
<pwrcycle> Is there a Defcon meeting this morning
<kinghat> wasnt all the stuffs ready it just needed to be tested properly? and we are just waiting because of "update fatigue"?
<xmrscott[m]> pwrcycle: No, April 6th
<sgp_> pwrcycle: this is a community meeting; we can discuss your proposal in a few mins. Defcon-specific meeting is later
<pwrcycle> k, yeah. just checking.
<sgp_> kinghat: I recommend checking in #monero-dev, I want to keep the meeting moving
<sgp_> But I understand that a quick 0.14.1 update is in the community's best interest
<sgp_> I hope we keep the update fatigue to a minimum
<sgp_> 3. CCS updates (previously FFS updates)
<sgp_> The new CCS has been deployed! Check it out at https://ccs.getmonero.org
<sgp_> v1docq47’s proposal was previously in funding required in the FFS, and it needs to be moved out of ideas to funding required in the CCS: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/32
<sgp_> CCS proposals still needing funding:
<sgp_> el00ruobuob’s proposal still needs funding (16.31 / 45): https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/el00ruobuob-january-to-march-part-time-for-a-new-quarter.html
<sgp_> a. Sarang’s proposal still needs funding (215 / 638): https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/sarang-2019-q2.html
<sgp_> are there any questions on sarang's proposal? I didn't expect it to be moved already
<ErCiccione[m]> (I didn't have time to write my proposal -my last one is expired - i will do it after i'm done with the guide for Pootle)
<sgp_> ok, none then. We discussed it a lot in the past
<sgp_> CCS proposals in ideas to be discussed:
<sgp_> b. pwrcycle-Defcon_Monero_Party_2019: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/33
<sgp_> pwrcycle: any comments?
<pwrcycle> lets have fun
<Xeagu__> I support fun
<dEBRUYNE> sgp_: There's a lot of open Prs still that need to be merged (+ some have to be reviewed)
<dEBRUYNE> So a few weeks seem reasonable
<pwrcycle> I'm still negotiating better pricing for drinks, but everything else is negotiated.
<Xeagu__> I would imagine most of it is beers, no?
<dsc_> pwrcycle: any chance you could get ytcracker to perform?
<sgp_> pwrcycle: I mentioned that I think $0 should go to Monero-badge drinks, any excess to extra merch/snacks instead. Otherwise I think it's good
<Xeagu__> $200 in beers is a good amount of alcohol for a party I think
<oneiric_> ooo oo and mc frontalot
<pwrcycle> DJs are set, we have the deal for the club. Enyone with either a Defcon or Monero badge gets in with +1.
<rehrar> I'll DJ next year
<sgp_> Xeagu__: we need to buy from venue, so that's like 12 drinks lol
<pwrcycle> I kind of put the 200 in there so people would know any leftover money would go to drinks. I kind of feel like everyone can get their own.
<rehrar> plenty for a party sgp_
<Xeagu__> Hmm what is the venue?
<Xeagu__> It's like a club?
<midipoet> i would DJ, but i don't think my music would suit Vegas. not enough cowbell
<Xeagu__> Venue last party was great imo
<pwrcycle> The club has a "6 bucket of beers" for $50. which would make beer prices $8.33 cents.
<Xeagu__> Are we reserving the entire venue or will there be non-Monero people there?
<pwrcycle> Chatteau Nightclub at the Paris hotel. (still trying to keep it kind of secret just to create some mystery)
<wowario> any chance getting Ben Earl Turner?
<sgp_> it's a huge venue
<Xeagu__> Yeah I'm not trying to spoil any surprises
<pwrcycle> We do not have the club exclussivily (way too much money). We do get to basically control the venue though.
<pwrcycle> i think the most useful part is the "rooftop" where people can go and get away for a few moments and smoke cigarettes if they want.
<Xeagu__> What I really liked about the last party was the setting which allowed for places where we could have drunk conversation
<ErCiccione[m]> can all this be discussed during the defcon meeting?
<midipoet> what time is the defcon meeting?
<nevvton[m]> ErCiccione: true +1
<xmrscott[m]> April 6, 17UTC
<sgp_> Xeagu__: this one is better for talking. More discussion areas
<sgp_> Any comments on whether this should be moved or not?
<sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: is right, we mostly just need to get a yay or nay
<Xeagu__> Okay cool sgp_
<xmrscott[m]> Check meta to post agenda topics on the defcoon meeting issue
<ErCiccione[m]> yay from me
<el00ruobuob_[m]> yay here too
<midipoet> i like parties
<midipoet> cowbell or no cowbell
<sgp_> c. Xeagu: Get Xeagu to the Konferenco! https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/42
<sgp_> Xeagu__: any comments?
<Xeagu__> Not really sure what else I can add
<Xeagu__> Vote yes!
<sgp_> given the feedback, this is a controversial proposal
<ErCiccione[m]> In this case I think the consensus is more than clear and there isn't really much more to say.
<ErCiccione[m]> It's not just controversial, one person is in favor, an entire community it's not. As easy as that IMHO.
<rehrar> I say no, for the reason that we should set a precedent to compensate for people that will either be presenting or doing necessary work to make the conferences happen
<dsc_> I feel the proposal is light on 'what does the Monero community get back in return' but I agree with Brandon Goodell's comment to merge it anyway and see how it goes.
<rehrar> all previous proposals were for these reasons, and it should not change. While there is no hard and fast rule for that, it gives the community the best bang for buck
<midipoet> regardless of what has gone on previously. and disregarding personal judgements of Xeagu. i have to be honest, and say that i don't understand where the value of this project is. It is literally ~$1000 for a conference 'report' plus some pictures.
<sgp_> also fwiw in this case, the Konferenco proposal covered travel expenses for those who are speaking
<ErCiccione[m]> dsc_: As i wrote on gitlab, moving a CCS proposal with that motivation set a bad precedent and reward untrustful behaviour.
<sgp_> Xeagu__: I mostly agree with midipoet. It's not especially clear what the benefits are
<midipoet> But having said that, the actual funding process was supposed to be the measure of community value, as apposed to our judgements.
<rehrar> fwiw I also don't find the accusations of sock puppeting that happened to be of any use to anyone ever
<rehrar> it gets really stupid. There is never any proof.
<Xeagu__> sgp_: would you recommend me to be a speaker to provide more value?
<rehrar> What can be definitively said is that those who did comment have no reputation or trust
<rehrar> great. That's fine.
<sgp_> Xeagu__: if you are a speaker, then this proposal isn't needed
<Xeagu__> Yes and I am not a speaker
<rehrar> But accusing people of socks is a bunch of garbage unless you have proof. So let's try to stop that, yeah?
<midipoet> rehrar protects his puppets :p
<rehrar> rehrar is sick of thinking Monero is a kindergarden
<oneiric_> don't raise pssibilities without solid proof, this be court of law
<ErCiccione[m]> rehrar: if you are referring to me, i'm strongly suspicious, but as you said i have no proofs, so that's definitely not a point.
<rehrar> wasn't just you ErCiccione[m]
<Xeagu__> sgp_: I would have a better chance at being accepted as a speaker if you vouched for me. Same for rehrar
<Xeagu__> rehrar: you saw me speak at 35C3. It's unfortunate that recording disappeared.
<sgp_> It doesn't seem like people have that many more comments. The core team just needs to make a decision I guess
<rehrar> oneiric_: it's my opinion oneiric_. I'm sure one man's opinion won't make people cry too much
<midipoet> Xeagu_: what would you talk about?
<rehrar> Xeagu__: I did, but you're not speaking here so that's that
<oneiric_> tears flow like rivers rehrar
<rehrar> oneiric_: and rivers are the soul of the soul
<Xeagu__> midipoet: that is the challenge. It is an academic conference and I am an Artist not an academic
<midipoet> i have a doctorate in Art. there is crossover
<midipoet> so again, what would you speak about?
<Xeagu__> Some might call me a Con Artist.
<sgp_> I'm going to keep moving on. Leave further comments in the Gitlab issue. And keep the discussions as civil as possible please
<sgp_> d. Monero Outreach quarterly and ongoing task funding https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/45
<sgp_> Is anyone here from the Outreach workgroup?
<midipoet> "Cryptocurreny: the long con". Not a bad speech title
<sgp_> all right then, we can move on
<sgp_> e. mooo's april coding: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/46
<sgp_> hard no from me on this one
<el00ruobuob_[m]> What do we need a dev for?
<midipoet> not even a good dev either
<ErCiccione[m]> useless man, i agree
<sgp_> not enough marketing
<midipoet> needs more cowbell
<xmrscott[m]> Would say yes for baaa's proposal
<oneiric_> ^needs a new joke
<ErCiccione[m]> midipoet: you really love cowbell man :P
<midipoet> joke of the week, and its only Saturday.
<sgp_> Does anyone else have a CCS update, or comments about any of these CCS proposals?
<ErCiccione[m]> o wow, missed a comma, created a useless superhero name
<sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
<sgp_> a. Hardware workgroup
<sgp_> Michael outlined a number of discussion topics of potential interest. Please ask questions on any of these topics: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/318#issuecomment-473528693
<sgp_> msvb-mob msvb-lab
<oneiric_> after 1-2 years, how close to a working prototype board?
<msvb-mob> Hi, so this is the part where Monero hardware gets reported.
<msvb-mob> We've had some requests for information in the last week, so there is an opportunity for specific questions now.
<msvb-mob> Topics can include Steel storage Wallet enclosure Wallet firmware Event badges Monero shield Konferenco BSides MUC BSides Vegas
<oneiric_> how about a working hardware wallet?
<msvb-mob> Just put some commas inbetween there, and you will understand the projects we're working on and physical places to report progress.
<msvb-mob> oneiric_: What is the question.
<oneiric_> how close are you to a working prototype board
<msvb-mob> All prototypes are done and we have two developer edition revisions, 0.8.3 (currently in design or 0.8.1 in distribution) and 0.9.0 is a more modern architecture but more difficult to develop.
<rehrar> we really need to release that state of open hardware :P
<rehrar> parasew[m] can attest it'll help clear things up somewhat
<oneiric_> awesome thanks msvb-mob, will tester boards be distributed?
<msvb-mob> rehrar: Maybe you mean tags and releases in Github terminology, and that is something that has been done badly, if you look there are some but not reflecting the current state.
<parasew[m]> rehrar: true, i am on it.
<msvb-mob> oneric_: Tester boards are in circulation and I sent one just today, for example. Others last week, with hopes that firmware engineers figure out the beginning steps.
<rehrar> I meant releasing the statement that we discussed at C3
<rehrar> it is written
<msvb-mob> All the (about ten) to mechanical engineers have been distributed since a few months ago.
<msvb-mob> And the enclosure design has reached a beta testing level of grade.
<nevvton[m]> >parasew can attest it'll help clear things up somewhat
<sgp_> rehrar: what's blocking this from getting out? I remember this being discussed months ago
<rehrar> RIAT been busy
<parasew[m]> @rehrar has been working on a long text to explain the status of the hardware wallets and the text will explain how open hardware projects are often underestimated. there also won't be a "final product", as boards are versioned (see the reprap project as example)
<ErCiccione[m]> nevvton: i don't think quoting will work on freenode
<parasew[m]> erciccione_[m]: actually - it did, lol
<dEBRUYNE> Is there still an idea to eventually sell these devices to the Monero community?
<msvb-mob> Long or short text is useful of course, as well as people rebroadcasting status reports in their favourite channels like Facebook and Telegram or wherever else.
<msvb-mob> dEBRUYNE: Yes, there is a cloud service since a month ago that will be used for the distribution and the first type of distribution will require stagenet coins for hardware.
<ErCiccione[m]> parasew[m]: Oh ok, maybe it depends by the client. I remember it not working on hexchat, but i might be wrong.
<msvb-mob> That's not documented anywhere, because the details are too difficult to determine and no real stagenet plan is available yet.
<parasew[m]> dEBRUYNE: just to be clear - i am not working on the hardware project itself. i just wanted to clear up the fog, as i have an open hw background and i am very active in this domain.
<dEBRUYNE> msvb-mob: So community members will be able to buy hardware wallets from a certain company?
<msvb-mob> dEBRUYNE: This has always been the case, with hopes that whoever has sales skills makes the platform. Because nobody has done so, I've organised the cloud service and done some PHP crappy bug fixing on a web eccomerce platform to use.
<dEBRUYNE> Okay, thanks for clearing that up
<dEBRUYNE> Well, as long as community members can order something and pay properly then it should be OK
<oneiric_> instructions for diy build too?
<dEBRUYNE> Even if the design is crappy :P
<oneiric_> for the hw nerds that like to solder stuff
<msvb-mob> oneiric_: Unfortunately novice instructions including how to use Kicad or how to arrange for PCBA is not part of the project.
<sgp_> Only a couple more minutes on this topic
<oneiric_> that's lame :(
<oneiric_> why not?
<msvb-mob> oneiric_: The path to a hello world hardware device for anybody who wants to produce their own wallet begins with ordering a very simple PCB from OSHPark and learning the beginnings.
<msvb-mob> oneiric_: It's a good idea to make a ten step document. I did that once, but can't remember where I put it and it's not maintained due to priority and focus on maximum speed towards distribution.
<msvb-mob> sgp_: I think we can go to the next topic unless anybody has a last hardware question?
<oneiric_> no worries, i would like to contribute, so maybe i can help with a guide
<sgp_> b. Defcon workgroup
<oneiric_> is assembly something possible with minimal hw / electronics tools?
<sgp_> Nothing to say except there is a meeting 6 April at 17:00 UTC: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/317
<sgp_> Do any workgroups have something to report?
<sarang> MRL continues to do things :/
<ErCiccione[m]> sarang go first
<sarang> Heh, that was pretty much it unless there were specific questions
<sarang> Worked up some Bulletproofs MPC code
<sarang> finished up tests on output selection for the point upgrade
<sarang> Another paper on refund-enabling signatures
<sgp_> thanks sarang
<sgp_> for the sake of time, I will switch 6 and 5
<sgp_> 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 30 March at 17:00 UTC.
<sgp_> When in doubt, use the calendar: https://xmr.ncrypt.sh/index.php/apps/calendar/p/8dP6z6XQDnkPREo4/Monero-Meetings
<ErCiccione[m]> but… but…
<sgp_> I'm working to get all the other meetings on this calendar too
<ErCiccione[m]> sgp_ you skipped my report.
<sgp_> If you have a tight schedule, thanks for joining us!
<sgp_> I totally missed that, my bad!!!!!
<sarang> ErCiccione[m]: what is up
<sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: go ahead
<ErCiccione[m]> no worries :). nothing too major actually, but i wanted to say
<dEBRUYNE> msvb-mob: One more thing, for which wallets can we expect integration?
<ErCiccione[m]> that the reorganization of the workgroup is slowly progressing. I finally have a local copy of Pootle that i'm using for testing new features and, particularly, fix some issues
<ErCiccione[m]> translators can work on the CLI and the GUI anytime they want, since no major changes are in sight AFAIK.
<ErCiccione[m]> we are looking for translators for Monerujo, we really need them and few answered to my call this time
<msvb-mob> dEBRUYNE: You need to ask the firmware designers that, because they decide the USB communications and command set in the protocol. The option exists to make the wallet compatible with anything, but my personal preference is to use the command line and gui tools from the native Monero distro.
<ErCiccione[m]> also, the guide for Pootle will be finished very soon
<dEBRUYNE> msvb-mob: Who are the firmware designers?
<dEBRUYNE> I'd personally like to see Monerujo and MyMonero (web) integration too
<msvb-mob> dEBRUYNE: There may be a native Electron application for workstation and a Reactnative for mobile.
<ErCiccione[m]> Just please share my calls for translators as much as possible, we have many contributors for non-techncial work (on pootle), but very few for technical (kinda technical, talking about using git)
<msvb-mob> dEBRUYNE: You for example, are a welcome firmware developer.
<dEBRUYNE> I don't possess those capabilities :-P
<ErCiccione[m]> i tried to be as short as possible, if anybody has questions, i'm happy to answer
<dEBRUYNE> Is there anyone realistically working on it?
<sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: thanks, and sorry!
<msvb-mob> dEBRUYNE: Monerujo-HW already exists as a firmware project, so it's kind of an obvious port to do the Anroid application, but I won't be the one to decide that.
<dEBRUYNE> iirc in the past m2049r did some work
<msvb-mob> Monerujo and Monerujo-HW are two different projects.
<ErCiccione[m]> sgp_: no worries. ANyway, i thought a report from the localization workgroup was always one of the point of the community meeting, could you add it at every meeting uf you don't already do it? Mostly beacuse I write in my proposal that updates and questions will happen during these meetings and i want to be sure everybody knows it and can ask question if they want.
<nevvton[m]> msvb-mob: could you explain for everyone ?
<nevvton[m]> msvb-mob: re: monerujo, monerujo-hw
<msvb-mob> nevvton: Monerujo is a Android only application, compiled from Java code. Monerujo-HW is a firmware application that can only run on Cortex-M devices (no Android nor IA32.)
<msvb-mob> Monerujo-HW can run on any Trezor, Kastelo, Nitrokey, or any other ARM Cortex-M device that's sold by ST Microelectronics.
<nevvton[m]> msvb-mob: certainly aware of monerujo project
<msvb-mob> Mooltipass probably won't work with Monerujo-HW because the Mooltipass uses a SAMD (not from ST Micro rather from Atmel) device.
<nevvton[m]> <msvb-mob "nevvton: Monerujo is a Android o"> just wanted to know about it’s -HW cortex-M in detail
<msvb-mob> Keepkey is also STM, so it will run Monerujo-HW with minimal changes.
<msvb-mob> Coldcard is SAMD so it will not.
<msvb-mob> You starting to get the idea? Like OpenSSL will run on your laptop but on a AWS server as well.
<msvb-mob> nevvton: What is the detailed question?
<sgp_> We're in 5. Open Ideas time now
<nevvton[m]> basically you just answered about the different standards . StM/ SaMd
<nevvton[m]> msvb-mob: thanks for clearifiying
<sgp_> Does anyone else have an idea or conversation?
<rehrar> not to be heard by the masses
<rehrar> I've just got some choice words of affection for oneiric_
<sgp_> This is still in posted log territory :)
<msvb-mob> Does anybody have a status report on the Github to Gitlab migration?
<oneiric_> oooo muh narcissism abounds, please tell rehrar
<sgp_> msvb-mob: I do not
<dsc_> rehrar: were you working on a Monero GUI?
<dsc_> if so, any update?
<serhack> I would like to ask to community. What should we do with getmonero.dev domain?
<rehrar> I have only so much time, so it's had to take a back seat to things like the new CCS
<sgp_> serhack have you asked the Core Team?
<parasew[m]> serhack: good domain! maybe some developer tutorials? i anyway think that the 'libraries and helpers' on the getmonero.org website is a bit hidden. for anyone developing software with monero this could be a very nice resource.
<rehrar> lol he left
<nevvton[m]> rehrar: good for logs anyways;)
<msvb-mob> serhack needs getmonero.lol
<sgp_> all right, we will wrap up then
<sgp_> 7. Conclusion
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.
<midipoet> thanks sgp_
<nevvton[m]> thankyou sgp_
<parasew[m]> thanks everyone, great meeting. lots of people here! thanks sgp :)
<endogenic> thanks all
<parasew[m]> "monero - we put the YO in YOU".
<nevvton[m]> hahah!! totally love and live it!!
<nevvton[m]> /see you all soon! thanks for great conversations to everyone
<msvb-mob> Thanks sgp.
<oneiric_> thanks all around