July 08, 2019

**<sarang>** Righto, let's begin our meeting!

**<sarang>** Agenda: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/368

**<sarang>** Starting now with GREETINGS

**<sarang>** hi

**<sgp_>** Hi

**<sarang>** suraeNoether: you here?

**<sarang>** It's quiet… too quiet…

**<suraeNoether>** yes

**<suraeNoether>** sorry

**<suraeNoether>** hellow gents

**<suraeNoether>** harrow

**<sarang>** Let's jump into ROUNDTABLE then, with our small crowd

**<suraeNoether>** mine is going to be super fast: last week basically right after the research meeting i started getting very ill. long story short, i went to the hospital, and let me just say: recreational pancreatitis is not a thing for a reason

**<sarang>** but it'd be a cool name for a band

**<suraeNoether>** yes. yes. *strokes chin*

**<suraeNoether>** so, i'm trying to take it easy and i did very little this past week

**<sarang>** Glad to see you're well enough to debug :)

**<sarang>** For me, MLSAG/CLSAG verification updates continue, with PR 5707 open for review and similar changes to my CLSAG branch (to be included in later code for review)

**<suraeNoether>** i have a few things on my plate for today, but other than that: i'm basically all action items and no progress compared to last week. onto sarang :D

**<sarang>** I've been in contact with Aram, the author of the Lelantus paper/protocol; he came up with an interesting idea to make the prover very efficient, at the cost of proof size and verification

**<sarang>** although the verification cost can be batched, of course

**<sarang>** I view proving time as generally unimportant (to an extent), but it's a very clever new way to prove a 1-of-N zero commitment

**<suraeNoether>** good prover times means fast construction of transaction for mobile devices

**<suraeNoether>** which is v nice

**<sarang>** true

**<sarang>** but if it costs you both space and verification time…

**<suraeNoether>** unlike, say, verification time, which puts a constraint on how rapidly the network can grow, which has security consequences for the chain

**<suraeNoether>** ^ ah yeah that's true: is it faster with a big space tradeoff?

**<sarang>** Faster prover, slower verifier, bigger proof

**<sarang>** I think you can batch away some of the verification increase (you effectively do two smaller proofs)

**<sarang>** There's a non-public draft writeup already, but I assume he'll work it into the main paper once the modified security proofs are complete

**<suraeNoether>** oooof

**<suraeNoether>** very interesting consequences

**<sarang>** Regardless, it's a damn clever construction

**<suraeNoether>** i'm excited to read all about it

**<sarang>** I'll ask if I can send it to you suraeNoether (not public though, sorry)

**<sarang>** I'm investigating a possible modification to Omniring that splits out the range proofs, improving verification batching at the cost of proof size

**<sarang>** And, because of the Omniring non-batching currently available, am revisiting analysis of RCT3

**<sarang>** Which, while it would require a separate output pool (non-compatible key image structure), does allow for batching of proofs (aside from ring member group elements, which cannot be batched unless reused)

**<suraeNoether>** last we spoke about this, we were still interested in writing up a comparison paper, but you've done all the legwork on it so far

**<suraeNoether>** still the plan?

**<sarang>** I don't consider a formal paper necessary, or even a great use of time

**<sarang>** But analyses of spacetime, totally

**<suraeNoether>** fair, maybe we can do a blog post on tradeoffs between the three schemes or something

**<sarang>** Maybe, but it gets subtle and complex really quickly under many different assumptions

**<sarang>** There isn't really a quick-and-dirty soundbite answer to which is better or worse

**<sarang>** Depends heavily on input/output structure, use of fixed epochs, batch behavior, etc.

**<sarang>** and output pool migration is nontrivial

**<sarang>** Omniring would _not_ require this… Lelantus and RCT3 would

**<sarang>** (or rather, Omniring does not _require_ this)

**<suraeNoether>** see… when you say all that, it seems like it *is* a good use of time. maybe not high priority, but

**<sarang>** A comparison is useful, I agree. But I don't want it to get lost in unnecessary formality of a full paper

**<sarang>** And a comparison is exactly what I'm doing

**<sarang>** Any questions on these topics?

**<sgp_>** Just a comment to say simple comparisons are good

**<sarang>** roger

**<sarang>** Does anyone else have research topics of interest to share?

**<sarang>** Righto!

**<nioc>** suraeNoether: people are wondering what the attendance was at konferenco

**<sarang>** At least provide a range proof

**<moneromooo>** 26 people and 172 sybils.

**<nioc>** an article in coindesk mentioned 75 which I know is way low

**<suraeNoether>** nioc: i'm finishing up my post-mortem report on the konferenco today (on my action item list). We had 150 swag bags made, with around 30-40 leftover, but we had 27 speakers and like 10 sponsors.

**<nioc>** I estimated 120 just by glancing

**<suraeNoether>** 75 is the number i gave coindesk for the number of attendees on Saturday morning, but more people bought tickets on both days and the totals were higher

**<suraeNoether>** if you count speakers and sponsors, that's around 110 on the first day, and around 125 the second

**<nioc>** think you mran Sunday morning

**<nioc>** mean

**<suraeNoether>** nope, we sold tickets throughout the afternoon on saturday and a few on sunday too. but coindesk asked for a comment on saturday morning, so i told them what i had sold at that point

**<nioc>** I'll wait for the report

**<suraeNoether>** k

**<nioc>** thx

**<sarang>** suraeNoether: congratulations on effectively committing yourself to running a kickass conference annually until the end of time =p

**<suraeNoether>** it was actually some of the best days of my life, but i've been told explicitly by my doctors that i need to take a vacation

**<suraeNoether>** so i'm planning for that in august, since scary cardio and internal medicine people told me so with stern voices

**<sarang>** Well then, let's move on to ACTION ITEMS

**<sarang>** I have many things in progress. Lelantus proof review, modified Omniring split proof analysis, RCT3 analysis, and starting to put together my defcon talk/workshop

**<suraeNoether>** my action items: konferenco post mortem, research report for previous quarter, funding request for the next 3 months, and some debuggin

**<sarang>** I'm doing a talk on transaction protocols (very high level), a workshop on simple cryptographic constructions with Python, and a panel discussion at the blockchain village

**<suraeNoether>** oh and i'm definitely not going to defcon this year. i can ship leftover swag like our USB data blockers with the monero logo and our pull-up banners if someone sends me the information for it

**<sarang>** :(

**<sarang>** The pull-up banners would be nice, assuming it's cheaper to ship than to get new ones

**<sarang>** as would the USB blockers

**<suraeNoether>** i'll look into it; ordering the usb blockers may be short notice but i can find out

**<suraeNoether>** unless you just meant shipping the banners

**<suraeNoether>** which is cool too

**<sarang>** Yeah I meant the banners

**<sarang>** I believe there was an idea to perhaps order more blockers for this (I'm not the one to ask)

**<sarang>** If you have extra USB blockers and would ship with the banners, cool

**<suraeNoether>** fantastic, i am happy folks liked the blockers

**<sarang>** Any last questions or comments before we formally adjourn, since agenda topics have been completed?

**<sarang>** Going once

**<sarang>** twice

**<sarang>** adjourned!

**<sarang>** Thanks to everyone for attending; logs will be posted shortly on the github issue

Post tags : Dev Diaries, Cryptography, Monero Research Lab