December 07, 2019
<sgp_> Meeting time!
<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Workgroup Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/418
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
<rottensox> wuddup bra.
<sgp_> ping rehrar needmonero90 ArticMine ErCiccione[m]
<rottensox> ping all.
<needmonero90> Oh right
<needmonero90> This is today
<hyc> I thought yesterday was today
<sgp_> welcome everyone! thanks for coming
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<sgp_> See Monero weekly highlights at https://revuo-monero.com
<sgp_> The special upgrade edition Coffee Chat was the most-viewed to date, with 248 hours of watch time and 1,300 views. This is more watch time than the previous record held by the November 2017 Coffee Chat.
<sgp_> (thanks of course to everyone who helped make it possible)
<sgp_> Note that the Monero website was compromised for a short period of time. Please see this: https://getmonero.org/2019/11/19/warning-compromised-binaries.html
<sgp_> You can see the meeting logs here: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/413
<sgp_> The Core Team made a blog post about the administration of the general fund: https://getmonero.org/2019/12/03/core-team-general-fund.html
<sgp_> And of course, the Monero network upgraded successfully!
<sgp_> Does anyone have community (non-workgroup) updates to share?
<rottensox> launch your native tongue monero-focused podcast.
<sgp_> indeed, please make more content everyone! in all the languages
<needmonero90> The subreddit will be codifying the informal 'two week between advertisements' and 'no reflinks' rules that have been enforced without being listed for ages
<sgp_> thank goodness reflinks are officially banned
<monerobby> I launched xmrnotify.com :)
<sgp_> welcome monerobby!
<rottensox> reflinks officially banned? hmm?
<needmonero90> They have been unofficially
<sgp_> 3. CCS updates
<sgp_> Funding required:
<sgp_> 36c3 supplies (503.88/560 XMR) https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/36c3.html
<sgp_> Multiple features and fixes for getmonero.org: https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/ErCiccione-website.html
<sgp_> wait, never mind that second one! already in progress whoops
<sgp_> Surae: research funding for Nov 2019 – Jan 2020 (339.07 / 499 XMR): https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/surae-q4-funding-2019.html
<sgp_> Ideas (to be discussed):
<sgp_> RandomX thanks: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/107
<sgp_> This received mixed feedback
<sgp_> Some people recommended immediately adding this to "completed tasks" with a donation link instead of funding required
<sgp_> Others prefer for it not to be added to the CCS, saying another donation platform is more appropriate
<sgp_> And of course some people feel it should be added as-is
<sgp_> jtgrassie needmonero90 want to give some comments?
<rottensox> i liked needmonies90 comment.
<needmonero90> luigi1111w ping
<sgp_> fwiw, I merely want to note that I spoke with a few other people who wanted to donate to RandomX, and they found the process of donating to the provided Github link to be unclear
<needmonero90> My thoughts are already basically all expressed
<sgp_> the user I spoke with wanted a clear way to contribute to all RandomX contributors. They felt confused on how the GitHub donations would be dispersed and it took them a little while to find
<sgp_> of course, that doesn't necessarily suggest that the CCS is warranted for these reasons
<hyc> I'm not sure I see how this is a *misuse* of the CCS though.
<needmonero90> In short, paying for work retroactively cheapens the work done for years by other people without pay
<sgp_> but I wanted to forward the feedback
<needmonero90> It's not a misuse. I am concerned about precedrbt
<sgp_> needmonero90: I don't quite agree with your perspective since people can donate for any reason on any platform to anyone, but I don't think the CCS is ideal for this
<hyc> So it's a bad precedent to thank people for work done, after the fact?
<rottensox> 'While I really like the sentiment, I'm a bit worried about the precedent that this would set for the project as a whole. I think using the CCS for this particular initiative is a misstep, personally.
<rottensox> I would have zero problems with self directed donations directly to the contributors, or even a separate non-CCS custodian, but if we're getting into 'retroactive paychecks for prior work done without expectation of pay', we have tons of people who fit the bill, and singling any of them out over the CCS cheapens the work done by the others.'
<sgp_> I would probably personally feel more comfortable with moving this to completed tasks or something directly
<rottensox> individual, direct donations. not ccs. done.
<hyc> It's up to those people to write CCS proposals
<rottensox> and it's up to the community to let them in or not. :-)
<sgp_> maybe a solution, independent of whatever is done with the CCS, is a clearer description of how the GitHub donations are dispersed
<hyc> I don't see any precedent being set that changes the mission of the CCS
<hyc> Fwiw I don't believe this could have worked the "traditional" way, as a CCS done in advance.
<hyc> Mainly because nobody knew in advane whether the work would ever result in anything successful.
<needmonero90> We also dont know if it will work
<hyc> We took on the development risk instead of asking the community to bear it
<hyc> Sure, it's still an open question that can only be answered after the passage of time
<needmonero90> Maybe it does get asic'd six months down the line
<needmonero90> A payment for this and not other tweaks would be a bit premature, no?
<hyc> at any rate, if anyone in the community feels like saying thanks, why prevent using the CCS for that purpose?
<hyc> This isn't asking for payment. You couldn't afford to pay the horus spent.
<needmonero90> Because it opens the door to every two bit coder or ecosystem contributor to ask for a slot
<sgp_> I wonder if another part/page of the CCS for donations to various contributors, workgroups, etc would help meet the goals here while keeping the CCS proposals for work that follows a more typical process
<rottensox> I do not think using CCS is correct.
<needmonero90> Where is the line for retroactive work
<needmonero90> Using the CCS to ask for payment for future work or future expenses just feels..well scoped
<hyc> The line is where the community decides whether to fund any proposal or not.
<hyc> The same line it has always been.
<sgp_> needmonero90: respectfully I think the more important point is that the CCS process isn't really meant for retroactive work at all, whether than the concern of setting a precedent
<sgp_> *rather than
<needmonero90> I'm using the phrase precedent
<rottensox> if it isn't meant for that, why are we still discussing it then?
<rottensox> no ccs. that's it.
<needmonero90> Nah that's the open question
<hyc> There's nowhere in the CCS that precludes it
<sgp_> is there anyone that would be opposed to a clear CCS page with donation links to workgroups, initiatives, and contributors? Would that meet everyone's concerns?
<sgp_> that's what I personally feel would be most appropriate
<sgp_> with the Monero project donation address at the top of course
<hyc> It seems pretty stupid to me. Folks in the community want a single place they can go to to contribute to the project. You're telling them no. Makes no sense.
<rottensox> if we do that, it has to include clause stating any donation to workgroups, initiatives or contributors is entirely voluntary and is not part of the ccs themselves. do i get it right? sgp_.
<sgp_> hyc: what do you think of adding a fifth button on ccs.getmonero.org for misc donations?
<rottensox> it'd be confusing if we add all those links, along with the classic ccs funding proposals…
<hyc> That might work
<hyc> rottensox: the entire CCS is voluntary so I don't see your point
<sgp_> rottensox: they would be on a separate page, not under any of the 4 existing components
<rottensox> sgp_: thanks.
<needmonero90> An index of donation addresses is fine
<sgp_> I can speak with rehrar to see what this could look like, since I think adding clearer donation options is good, and so is preserving a clear "work-in-progress" process. Hopefully this is a good compromise that does both
<needmonero90> No objections
<sgp_> and then it gives exposure in the same way the other CCS projects get exposure. all on 1 platform for more legitimacy
<rottensox> might be a good idea. hope you get to talk him more on this soon.
<sgp_> ok cool, let's start there and see what we can do
<sgp_> ok, on to the second one
<sgp_> us-west-cost-monero-drop-storage: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/108
<sgp_> This includes a discussion about reimbursements. How do we feel about this proposal and using the CCS for reimbursements?
<sgp_> I personally am ok with the reimbursements. Note however that I was reimbursed for many Monero meetup travel costs in 2017
<sgp_> rehrar indicated however that this CCS may not be necessary if other funds that were already raised can cover the shortfall
<sgp_> so it's on hold anyway until we figure that out since it may not be needed
<sgp_> needmonero90: do you have any comments here? you asked to bring up this topic of reimbursements
<needmonero90> I feel like the bad guy of the CCS right now, heh
<needmonero90> I kind of take issue with reimbursements for overages on CCS stuff, because it encourages lowballing (to a degree) if you can expect people to pay for the excess
<sgp_> I also want to note that ErCiccione expressed disapproval of this proposal and the purchasing and storing of equipment for Defcon in general
<needmonero90> idk, people make CCS requests, and should hopefully build in potential overages
<needmonero90> this case is special of course, because it was unknown that the storage site would cover it
<needmonero90> would increase costs*
<sgp_> I think that's a valid point, but we need to be careful about the flip side where the community always overpays for everything in the worst case. It's a bit of a balance
<ajs[m]> not all the funds raised in the original proposal was used by the way
<sgp_> rehrar is custodying them, right?
<sgp_> needmonero90: there is Defcon 2019 money leftover
<ajs[m]> most of it was allocated to the dev fund because we couldn't record video
<sgp_> I think for this proposal we are waiting on rehrar's description of funds leftover
<sgp_> but your point about discouraging lowballing is noted needmonero90
<sgp_> Any other CCS comments before we move on?
<ajs[m]> I'll make sure to high-ball next time
<sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
<sgp_> a. Daemon/CLI workgroup
<sgp_> No major changes have been made since the 0.15.0.1 release as far as I can tell, but there are many small back-end changes and test improvements for reliability.
<sgp_> b. Localization workgroup
<sgp_> ErCiccione isn't here today to give an update, but he recently gave one on Reddit
<sgp_> c. GUI workgroup
<sgp_> A contributor reported many small quirks, and these were quickly patched by xiphon and others
<selsta> GUI tagged v0.15.0.2 and will be out in ~24 hours
<msvb-fab> I have a one liner Monero hardware team workgroup report.
<sgp_> Thanks selsta :)
<selsta> depending on how fast fluffy is uploading the bins
<sgp_> selsta: do you know if anyone is working on the i2p integration? I haven't seen updates to the PR in a few weeks
<selsta> AFAIK no one is working on it currently.
<sgp_> ok, thanks
<rottensox> news about Kastelo? :DDDD
<sgp_> d. Monero Research Lab
<sgp_> sarang is here to give an update :)
<sarang> Primarily have been working on transaction protocols and proving systems: CLSAG is getting a security model overhaul, and Triptych is getting finalized
<sarang> I've been working recently with Aram, a Zcoin cryptographer, since his Lelantus work has some structural similarities to Triptych
<sarang> Note that no CLSAG algorithm changes are yet proposed… only a stronger security model
<sarang> Plenty of tedious math and proofs :)
<sarang> (thanks to the anonymous FC conference reviewers for their insights)
<sgp_> thanks sarang
<sarang> no prob
<sgp_> e. Hardware workgroup
<msvb-fab> Thanks, Monero hardware team status update follows.
<msvb-fab> We may have Kastelo developer kits available for distribution or at least demonstration for 37C3.
<msvb-fab> However, I failed to get a ticket for the event so I won't be on site.
<msvb-fab> If anybody wants to help, please notify me.
<msvb-fab> Help means:
<msvb-fab> Deliver the hardware team speech that is in the RIAT frab system.
<msvb-fab> And demonstrate the devices.
<msvb-fab> That's all, thank you sgp_. Next topic.
<sgp_> That was indeed quick, thanks msvb-fab
<rottensox> you meant 36C3, no?
<sgp_> hopefully someone can get you a ticket
<msvb-fab> Ups, is it year 36? Yes.
<rottensox> i'm afraid so, yes.
<msvb-fab> I guess Defcon 27 and 36C3. That's it.
<rottensox> wonderful to know there'll be development kits available. thanks for the update.
<sgp_> 5. Konferenco 2020
<msvb-fab> Me and pebx are the location scouts for Berlin, which won the Konferenco location survey.
<sgp_> msvb-fab: you have the floor again for Berlin planning progress
<msvb-fab> There are midterm scouting results to see, but please note that these values are semi private (not public at all.=
<msvb-fab> It seems pebx is not here, he or she has not published their results (to me) but has said they are scouting thirty (?) locations.
<nioc> there was another survey?
<rottensox> there was a network split between sgp_ and msvb-fab running surveys for konferenco 2020.
<sgp_> nioc: no I never made another one. I need to follow up with the others to see if anything else was found
<msvb-fab> I don't know how many survey there were, but the one I did covered six cities and two questions, about six hundred hits and two hundred fifty votes.
<sgp_> msvb-fab: can you clearly specify for each venue if we can handle our own catering and A/V?
<nioc> sgp_: ok, don't think another survey would change things, just wondering if I missed something
<msvb-fab> Yes, but it has been very time consuming and a couple venues have not yet reported prices.
<msvb-fab> Don't worry as I've informed all venues that we're sensitive to freedoms and restrictions, naming specificatlly A/V technik and catering.
<sgp_> ok, keep us updated please
<rottensox> we're set for berlin is what i'm understanding?
<sgp_> rottensox: most likely unless the venues all suck
<msvb-fab> rottensox In the end only Berlin will host Konferenco if the conference boss (who nobody has volunteered to be) decides it. Kind of a dictatorship like last year.
<sgp_> yeah, Berlin so far is the only place where work has gone into it yet, so it's kinda the default choice at this point
<msvb-fab> Any other location venue questions about Konferenco?
<rottensox> everyone was rooting for eu months ago, now they don't even participate in the meetings.
<rottensox> happens all the time.
<rottensox> msvb-fab: what approximate date do we have? just to have an idea?
<rottensox> mid 2020?
<sgp_> I'll follow up with pebx
<monerobux> test failed
<rottensox> sgp_: kk, let's move on.
<rottensox> we're running out of time for meeting.
<msvb-fab> Folks, it's quite time consuming to scout venues, so if anybody knows of a reason that I should stop doing this please say so and I'll put scouting on hold. There are already a lot of megabytes of information regarding seating, services, options, darkening windows, floorplans and a bunch of stuff.
<rehrar> argh. Sorry for missing the meeting. Mattermost was disconnected.
<msvb-fab> rottensox I've told all venue managers that we want a weekend in May or June.
<sgp_> cool, thanks msvb-fab. We should work with pebx to help organize this all in a comprehensive format
<rottensox> msvb-fab: thanks a lot.
<sgp_> But we shall proceed for now for time's sake
<sgp_> 6. Open ideas time
<sgp_> It’s open ideas time! Feel free to propose your ideas to this discussion group, and feel free to comment on others’ ideas. If you disagree with the idea, please reply with constructive criticism. Thank you!
<sgp_> How did we market this release? What could we have done better? What else in the community can be improved?
<sarang> I would like to know ways to better engage the ecosystem when it comes to network upgrades
<sarang> e.g. Zcash is having an upcoming upgrade, and it's interesting to watch their list of supported services
<sarang> Hopefully lessons to learn, or information to share
<hyc> In particular, how do we get exchanges to upgrade as soon as new code is available, as opposed to waiting until the new fork actually occurs?
<sgp_> hyc: that's a huge annoying problem :/
<hyc> all of those exchanges waiting till last minute looked pretty stupid
<sgp_> OsrsNeedF2P put in a ton of work compiling a list in r/xmrtrader
<sgp_> but most exchanges were lazy
<rottensox> not our fault.
<sarang> If it affects users, it's a big deal
<sgp_> we need to somehow get these services to subscribe to the announce mailing list at the minimum
<msvb-fab> If you are here ajs, please join #monero-konferenco
<hyc> or we need users to make more noise too, badger their exchanges
<hyc> not sure that's effective though, badgering tech support seldom has much positive effect
<rottensox> mailing list sounds like a good idea, but then all the exchanges are ultimately divided and god knows if the right person will get the e-mail notification at the end. sgp_
<sgp_> I can ask Sonya from Zcash to see if she is familiar with the process of contacting exchanges
<sarang> Good idea sgp_
<sarang> Hopefully it doesn't come down to "hope that the right exchanges follow you on twitter"…
<Snipa> Exchanges tend to listen to high value holders more than anything else, unsurprisingly. Having gone through some of the processes before, it's surprisingly hard to get them to listen, even if you're running a medium-ish sized fund
<Snipa> Medium ish being several million dollars in held crypto at any point.
<sarang> I'm surprised there isn't a more formalized "established contact" system between exchanges and the projects whose code they run
<rottensox> nioc is the official network upgrading certified individual then.
<rottensox> that's the biggest whale.
<sgp_> most of the time they probably talk to companies or don't care enough about the low-caps
<Snipa> This was specifically a registered crypto fund that I was advising on their Monero handling processes and how they managed them IRT exchanges.
<sgp_> Snipa: thanks for this perspective
<sgp_> in my experience, most funds don't know much about the crypto they are trading, so their feedback is not often taken to heart
<Snipa> Smaller exchanges tend to be using whitelabel products in my experience, so they don't always have the technical expertise to handle a network upgrade safely, which are the ones that would be easiest to grab with a specified upgrade procedure and such. Larger exchanges that have done extense integration work with the client API's care more about changelogs and such from my contact perspective.
<nioc> rottensox: I'm big in your eyes :)
<nioc> also don't forget I'm in NY :(
<rottensox> i can be in Venezuela. i still have an internet connection to pester exchanges.
<rottensox> nioc: you misspelled cute.
<rottensox> in any case, shouldn't the meeting have ended by now?
<Snipa> I ran into that as well sgp_, as I was sub-advising for some startup funds as well. The main fund I was working with was specifically investing in privacy/security chains, so they had an outsized position in XMR. I'd suspect chasing down fund managers would not be the /worst/ idea in the world, to provide leverage against the exchanges.
<sgp_> yes probably, but we should keep the conversation about how to talk with exchanges and other services in our minds
<sgp_> Snipa: thanks, let me know if we can arm them with any resources they might need to chat with the exchanges
<sgp_> but I'm going to wrap this up for now, since I need to enjoy my weekend :)
<sgp_> not that this meeting isn't enjoyable ofc :p
<sgp_> 7. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 21 December at 17:00 UTC
<sgp_> 8. Conclusion
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.