February 01, 2020
<sgp_> 0. Introduction
<sgp_> We would like to welcome everyone to this Monero Community Workgroup Meeting!
<sgp_> Link to agenda on GitHub: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/435
<sgp_> Monero Community meetings are a discussion place for anything going on in the Monero Community, including other Monero workgroups. We use meetings to encourage the community to share ideas and provide support.
<sgp_> 1. Greetings
* needmonero90 waves
<sgp_> welcome everyone
<sgp_> sorry again for the delay
<sgp_> next meeting at normal time (1 hour before this)
<sgp_> 2. Community highlights
<needmonero90> It's 18:00 on a Saturday, the regular crowd shuffles in
<sgp_> See Monero weekly highlights at https://revuo-monero.com
<sgp_> Does anyone have community (non-workgroup) updates to share?
<sgp_> I'll take that as a no
<ArticMine> I gave a podcast in Spanish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZaf5ps7Lzs&feature=youtu.be
<monerobux> [ Monero Swaps para anonimizar Bitcoin con ArticMine - L47 - YouTube ] - www.youtube.com
<sgp_> oh sweet, nice ArticMine!
<sgp_> good stuff
<sgp_> you should be on rottensox and anhdres's podcast
<sgp_> 3. CCS updates
<sgp_> Funding required:
<sgp_> 3 months part time work on Getmonero.org https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/ErCiccione-website-jan-march.html (150.26 / 174 XMR)
<sgp_> v1docq47: video creation / translations into russian (february - july 2020) (6.04 / 100 XMR) https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/%20v1docq47-video-creation-translations-into-russian-(february-july-2020).html
<sgp_> Ideas (to be discussed):
<sgp_> Locha Mesh, private transactions and sync over a resilient long-range radio mesh network https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/115
<sgp_> lots of comments on this one over the weeks
<sgp_> this specific proposal seems to have general support from binaryfate, selsta, and xmrhaelan
<sgp_> among a few others
<sgp_> and as far as I can tell, ErCiccione[m] and rehrar have outstanding concerns
<selsta> not really from my side
<selsta> they plan for recurring funding which I’m against
<needmonero90> Myself as well (concerns) but I have not vocalized them in the thread.
<rehrar> My concerns are mostly satisfied at this point.
<sgp_> selsta: against recurring, but you would be ok with this one? I'm trying to understand your viewpoint
<rehrar> I would be comfortable seeing this as a trial period. And if we like them and they like us, integrate them into our project.
<sgp_> rehrar: noted, thanks
<sgp_> needmonero90 and ErCiccione[m], can we please hear your concerns
<selsta> Integrating them is a bad idea IMO.
<ErCiccione> The project can be interesting, but gives me the feeling that it need way more than 3 months before we see some concrete development
<selsta> They are not a Monero project and wouldn’t be here without funding
<dEBRUYNE> We also have to ask ourselves how many people are actually going to utilize the integration
<sgp_> indeed, it's a niche solution to be honest
<selsta> 19:09 <sgp_> selsta: against recurring, but you would be ok with this one? I'm trying to understand your viewpoint <– In general I’m against it as it is not related to Monero but I would be ok with one time funding.
<rehrar> selsta, perhaps. I'm not for them being integrated necessarily. I'm against them getting money unless they are one of us, was my point.
<sgp_> but presumably donors would know that? should that be clearer?
<sgp_> my concerns with it being niche are related to the donors knowing that, not necessarily a hold on moving the CCS if that makes sense
<selsta> Where is the limit? Someone creating an operating system that at one point will run Monero, would that be something for the CCS?
<ErCiccione> I think i'm leaning more to selsta's point of view. A continuous funding of a project without clear benefits doesn;t sound like a good idea, especially since we will see the real benefits in a very long time, not at the end of the 3 months
<dEBRUYNE> I am also a bit worried it might exhaust donors
<sgp_> selsta: I don't want to get too into the weeds, but there is an associated marketing opportunity and clear prioritization for a tool built for Monero I suppose. These would need to be addressed case-by-case
<dEBRUYNE> We've already had periods were projects took quite some time to get funded
<rehrar> dEBRUYNE: this is my biggest concern.
<rehrar> We have some big ones coming up too. suraeNoether needs to put his in.
<ErCiccione> dEBRUYNE: That's a very legit concern. I know the pain of seeing your proposal not funded for months
<sgp_> (it's still not fully funded)
<rehrar> Also, let's be real, funding three conferences a year, plus several quarterlies is, I think, the limit of the system.
<rehrar> Along with a smattering of small one-offs.
<needmonero90> Without a pamp at least
<ArticMine> ^ very valid
<needmonero90> Even then we risk over extending for a future bear tho
<rehrar> For this reason alone, I vote no.
<ArticMine> A future bear is likely to be weaker than this one
<sgp_> as a CCS moderator, it's hard for me to weigh the concern about burdening donors in a way that's fair. it's entirely subjective in terms of what to move
<sgp_> I get that this is a nonessential need
<rehrar> In contentious cases like this we leave to Luigi.
<ArticMine> I am very much on the fence on this.
<rehrar> I'll be giving a full report to him on our talks here and on the gitlab
<sgp_> rehrar: can you tell luigi I lean yes move with donor disclaimers (they know it's a fun, ambitious, "extra" project), and that you "vote no"
<rehrar> Can do.
<sgp_> any other discussions that are new info or new arguments before we wrap up this topic?
<needmonero90> None here
<sgp_> ok, thanks for your patience as this one took a bit of time to discuss over the past several weeks
<sgp_> A Monero-centric Merchant Marketplace https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/117
<needmonero90> Is endogenic around?
<sgp_> any comments on this one? up for a week now
<needmonero90> I think endogenic might have a similar project, would be curious to know if he's seen that
<rottensox> item number 7; seems fairly similar to what rbrunner had in mind. koe weighs in on this there.
<needmonero90> Wait wrong person
<needmonero90> Wasn't endo, lemme contact them
<sgp_> doesn't seem like there's much discussion here yet, so we should review on gitlab and encourage them to do another round of reddit to increase exposure to the idea
<sgp_> Part Time Research Atoc (pending update) https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/120
<sgp_> this one is stalled, no discussion needed
<sgp_> xiphon part-time coding https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/merge_requests/122
<sgp_> does anyone oppose this one? contributor with a track record looking to increase their involvement 50%
<sarang> I believe that atoc is presently interested in the XMR-BTC swap proposal from h4sh3d
<sgp_> sarang: I think we can discuss that one when it's updated so we have more to discuss
<sgp_> for the record: who supports xiphon's proposal?
<selsta> I do
<sgp_> you all are quiet today! many of you commented on gitlab expressing support
<selsta> 19:23 <sgp_> does anyone oppose this one? contributor with a track record looking to increase their involvement 50% <– AFAIK his previous CCS was already 20h/week
<selsta> unless I misremember
<sgp_> this one is 30 hrs
<sgp_> 20 -> 30
<selsta> didn’t see that :P
<ArticMine> Developer proposals from existing contributors are a safe bet in my books. So yes
<sgp_> I personally looked to make sure that there are plenty of plans to-do to fill the time, and it seems to be the case 100%
<needmonero90> Xiphon does valuable work, though I'm also curious how far we can stretch donated time. In the past I've tried to come to grips with the difference between people who are coordinators (availability expectations) and regular controvutors
<needmonero90> Right now I'm in favor of the proposal, though it's inconsistent with my previously expressed stance that we should only be paying coordinators
<needmonero90> Yeah, like the mrl
<needmonero90> They act as human buffers
<endogenic> mrl is contributing tho
<needmonero90> For the people who contribute their time and effort for free
<selsta> we have never done that?
<selsta> unless I’m missing some discussion
<needmonero90> I'm speaking about our funding of the researchers, when other people like isthmus don't get CCSed
<needmonero90> Basically, the researchers have an availability expectation
<rehrar> He hasn't asked. :P
<sgp_> needmonero90: are you suggesting a form of leadership role (likely in addition to contributions)?
<needmonero90> I've been referring to them as coordinators
<selsta> sounds unnecessary for the GUI
<needmonero90> Them = that role
<sgp_> ah, got it
<needmonero90> And coordinators are really the place where funding makes sense
<sgp_> I think in this case the gui workgroup hasn't really formed this way, but maybe they will in the future
<sgp_> I mean, they kinda have in practice
<needmonero90> I'm on the fence about funding regular contributors with no availability/coordination expectation
<selsta> I disagree with that.
<sgp_> I think that's a strong stance
<ErCiccione> I disagree too
<ErCiccione> and that's not how the ccs work right now fwiw
<rehrar> needmonero90: I wouldn't say mooo has an availability/coordination expectation.
<sgp_> but I acknowledge the benefit of prioritizing leadership roles
<rehrar> He does sometimes, but not all the time. He just codes for the most part.
<needmonero90> I've been trying to figure out an internally consistent structure for the CCS in my own head
<needmonero90> I realize it's not how it works atm
<ErCiccione> ah ok :)
<rehrar> I say yay on xiphon.
<sgp_> needmonero90: I think it's an interesting check, but as you acknowledged, there will need to be exceptions as we figure this out :)
<selsta> We don’t need paid GUI contributors that have expected availability.
<selsta> We need contributors that code :)
<needmonero90> One that doesn't open itself up to random people putting pressure on getting their proposal merged so they get a seal of approval
<sgp_> I think we're done on xiphon discussion
<sgp_> and the CCS stuff
<ErCiccione> We need contributors that code -> we need contributors.
<sgp_> we got through a lot this week, good job everyone
<sgp_> 4. Workgroup report
<rehrar> We need contributors -> We need
<sgp_> not we, just I need
<needmonero90> I need money
<sgp_> a. Daemon/CLI workgroup
<sgp_> vtnerd made a PR for the last major hurdle for dandelion++ support! ++
<rehrar> I saw that.
<rehrar> That's kind of super exciting.
<sgp_> better network privacy even without tor/i2p
<sgp_> cool stuff
<rehrar> Exciting enough to do a point release with it?
<rehrar> Once merged, I mean.
<sgp_> rehrar: will probably take time to merge, so who knows! :)
<sgp_> that's the biggest thing I saw but I'm sure there was more I missed
<sarang> There are network benefits even without full adoption, FWIW
<rehrar> At least a day, for sure.
<rehrar> sarang, can MRL look over the implementation and give their thoughts?
<sgp_> yeah, partial is hugely beneficial here
<sgp_> though we should expect large adoption at the next hardfork
<sarang> I added it to the top of my list as soon as I saw it late yesterday
<ErCiccione> we definitely need to write a blog post after the PR is merged
<sgp_> b. Localization workgroup
<sarang> I expect it will be discussed at the next MRL meeting
<sgp_> ErCiccione[m]: absolutely
<sgp_> marketing 101
<sgp_> ErCiccione: you're up now :)
<rehrar> This is actually kinda huge.
<ErCiccione> nothing too big. I'm waiting for 2 PR to be merged in the getmonero repo before starting to use weblate for the website (i will speak about it more in the report of the website workgroup)
<ErCiccione> and the strings for the GUI got updated
<ErCiccione> so if you speak another language, get in there and translate all the things
<ErCiccione> there should be about 40 new strings
<rehrar> Sneaky Computer Bucks
<ErCiccione> and ike 30 removed, but i'm going by memory, could totally be the other way round
<ErCiccione> that's basically it. Waiting for a PR to be merged in the core repo, so translators can work on the CLI as well
<needmonero90> Is CLI currently untranslated?
<ErCiccione> Not sure of what you mean. CLI is translatable on weblate, but not in this very moment, because the PR with the refresh and the translated strings need to be merged first, or there would be conflicts
<needmonero90> Oh I understand
<ErCiccione> this is the PR: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/6312
<ErCiccione> there is also a brief summary of the work of the translators that is being committed
<needmonero90> Spanish is only 9% done? Rottensox slackin
<ErCiccione> so basically after that is merged the new strings will be picked up and people can start to translate the CLI again
<ErCiccione> that's the normal workflow
<rottensox> needmonero90: sorry… translation isn't my expertise. actually, i have no specialization.
<ErCiccione> yeah, cli doesn't see much action, but i'm kinda ok with it, i prefer most of the effort to be on the GUI and if there are energies left, CLI
<ErCiccione> rottensox: you don't need any specialization. I literally just learned english properly when i started to translate Monero stuff. But that's another story
<kinghat> so how does D++ work with Tor or I2P?
<sgp_> kinghat: let's table that question for now
<sgp_> anything else ErCiccione?
<sgp_> I have two related things I'll mention here
<sgp_> Mastering Monero was translated to Chinese: zh.masteringmonero.com
<sgp_> It was also translated to Russian and needs reviewers: https://github.com/monerobook/monerobook/pull/81
<sgp_> the second one was part of the CCS request that is outstanding
<ErCiccione> that's actually super cool. Great job to all involved
<sgp_> c. GUI workgroup
<sgp_> Binaries for the point release are still not out yet. https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/releases/tag/v0.15.0.3
<sgp_> no idea what the status is there honestly
<needmonero90> Did you ping the telegram channel on the review sgp?
<sgp_> but I haven't been paying close attention
<needmonero90> I can drop the link there if you haven't
<sgp_> needmonero90: not yet but I need to
<sgp_> oh, please do :)
<sgp_> d. Outreach workgroup
<sgp_> thunderosa: please give your update
<thunderosa> Sure, so I have Almutasim's update first that I'll copy and paste
<thunderosa> In the second half of last year, Monero Outreach worked on story generation and publishing in several areas. The following were either edited or written by Monero Outreach during this period:
<thunderosa> Response to Coinbase. On November 8, 2019, Coinbase blogged an article covering its views on Proof of Work (PoW), and the article made a number of incorrect points and reached an arguably inappropriate conclusion regarding Monero. Monero Outreach's fast-turnaround November 13 response corrected the errors and argued in favor of the ASIC-resistance path taken by Monero’s developers. Corrections included 1)
<thunderosa> pointing out the article’s description of Monero’s efforts to prevent the use of ASICs as outdated and 2) countering adverse technical and philosophical arguments made regarding the benefits of ASICs.
<thunderosa> Getting Started with Helping Monero. Monero Outreach created a document describing the many ways individuals can engage with the Monero community and support Monero. Resources for learning more about Monero and its technology were presented. The document included advice for software developers, with links to repositories, guides, and research results. It summarize Monero workgroups and social media outlets.
<thunderosa> And advice was given on other ways of individual contribution, such as through mining, running a Monero node, and donating.
<thunderosa> Monero in China and The West. Monero Outreach worked with Chinese Monero community member FutureFan to publish an article comparing the Monero communities of China and the West. FutureFan had previously worked with Monero Outreach by translating articles into Chinese. This new article talked about the relative sizes of the Monero communities and the difference in interest, with, for example, the West more
<thunderosa> interested in philosophy and China more interested in mining. It presended a path forward to improve cooperation between the two communities and increase the use of Monero in China. This article, released just after the new year, was followed up with a Monero Talk interview that will be published as a video soon.
<sgp_> they told me before there would be a wall of text, and I recommended getting it all out quickly :)
<thunderosa> Well,..so the real wall is coming
<thunderosa> and I'm sorry,..but it's a big update.
<thunderosa> But our main focus this time around was more on how we publish versus what we publish. Over the past year we've realized that much of the traffic we orchestrate for Monero never touches our servers and in fact the only things we actually need www for is SEO and thumbnail scraping for social media. We saw an opportunity to practice what we preach and decentralize our publishing.
<thunderosa> With that in mind, we also had a basket of concrete design goals. A big focus was to setup Primo/RPC-Pay/Support Mining in an effort to help subsidize our hard costs. We also thought we were well-suited to be an RPC-Pay guinea pig publisher. It was also important that the Community Calendar and Merchant Directory projects would be furthered. Lastly, we wanted to prepare to release our publishing platform,
<thunderosa> Spoke, as FOSS and some modernizing and organizing was needed.
<sgp_> sarang: to some extent it's good to have it actually in the logs rather than an external site that will go away
<thunderosa> holy cats!
<thunderosa> sorry about that
<thunderosa> Anyway, there's alot going on,…TLDR: We're serverless and going to finally finish the Community Calendar on it
<sgp_> haha just as I made a temporary solution
<ErCiccione> (sorry, misclicked)
<thunderosa> Well, I have been very late in delivering it, and for that I'm sorry.
<thunderosa> But this is the right way to build it.
<ErCiccione> the non-google calendar is very welcome :P
<thunderosa> yeah, we can take Google in if we want,..but I'd really rather avoid using G at all for our projects.
<thunderosa> like Google Calendar API in
<thunderosa> as a source
<ErCiccione> no please don't. My point is to not use google
<thunderosa> Yeah, I'd like to start with just humans and see how good we can make that before automating too much.
<kinghat> the outreach post on RPC-Pay was awesome 🙏
<ErCiccione> ^ agree. Would be cool to make a user guide for getmonero out of it
<thunderosa> Thank you, Alumtasim did a really amazing job making that happen and leading our workgroup into some new ideas through it.
<sgp_> thanks for the update thunderosa
<sgp_> I echo statements that rpc-pay was great
<sgp_> nice, simple name too
<sgp_> any other outreach comments?
<kinghat> put the new cal link in the topic?
<thunderosa> Nope that's the load. We'll be posting updates mid next week.
<sgp_> great, thanks for the updates here
<sgp_> skipping hardware since msvb seems away, can come back if needed
<sgp_> f. Konferenco workgroup
<sgp_> Expect an announcement this Monday. But as a sneak peek, the Konferenco is June 13-14 in Berlin.
<sgp_> but yeah, be ready Monday
<sgp_> g. Monero Research Lab
<sarang> Plenty of topics under discussion recently
<sarang> One of note is CLSAG
<sarang> We'd planned for an earlier audit, but got great review comments from a conference submission
<sarang> If there is still good support for deployment, I recommend an audit still
<sarang> However, I also recommend not having someone directly involved with the work coordinate the audit
<sarang> to mitigate conflicts of interest
<sarang> sgp_ suggested an audit workgroup
<sarang> General thoughts on this initial idea?
<sgp_> I've reached out to a few names to judge interest
<sgp_> but the intent is to use the workgroup to help coordinate the clsag audits
<sgp_> maybe I can answer questions about that after sarang, continue
<sarang> The timing of the audit depends on (a) security model updates to the preprint; (b) availability of reviewers; (c) timeline of selection/fundraising
<selsta> Is conflict of interest a realistic threat? Can you explain?
<sarang> I think it's always a good idea to keep in mind
<sgp_> selsta: there are also a few related goals, like drafting writeups of the results, etc
<sarang> I think it sets a good standard of impartiality going forward
<ArticMine> I agree
<sarang> As a reminder, the benefits of CLSAG are ~25% reduction in typical tx size, and ~15-20% verification savings
<sarang> The only quote we received last time for a math+code audit was about 15000 USD
<sarang> this was from Teserakt
<ArticMine> via OSTIF?
<sarang> Anyway, that's the big research item of timely community interest that I wished to share
<sarang> ArticMine: yes
<sgp_> thanks sarang
<UkoeHB_> may I jump in?
<sarang> That's another conflict of interest, since I've participated in an OSTIF advisory committee :)
<sgp_> it was a busy MRL week, so follow their github if interested: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues
<sgp_> UkoeHB_: sure briefly :)
<sarang> Yes, many issues that we'd been looking at (and new ones) are now listed there as issues
<UkoeHB_> Here is the current roadmap containing others’ ideas and my ideas, most of which need more discussion so please feel free to leave thoughts https://www.pdf-archive.com/2020/02/01/moneroroadmapkoe020120/moneroroadmapkoe020120.pdf
<UkoeHB_> OpenBazaar integration was investigated by rbrunner in 2019 but met some technological roadblocks. I have been engineering solutions to those problems, which should hopefully be fleshed out over the next weeks. The solutions would be beneficial to any Monero based marketplace that wants to operate with minimal trust requirements.
<sarang> ^ koe's personal roadmap
<UkoeHB_> Sarang has helped me design a monero-style coinjoin protocol, named TxTangle, which is mostly done.
<sarang> (don't view it as endorsement by anyone else)
<sarang> This may be a bit off-topic for this group, but at some point it should be decided when the next network upgrade should occur, given CLSAG and other changes of possible interest
<sarang> CLSAG is a consensus change
<sarang> D++ is not
<sarang> but simultaneous release would help adoption
<sgp_> sarang: good point, we will need to talk about that later though
<sarang> Yeah, I know it's running late :/
<sgp_> thanks UkoeHB_
<sgp_> ErCiccione: would you like to give a website update?
<sgp_> go ahead
<ErCiccione> i guess we are running late so i'll be superquick
<ErCiccione> 3 things:
<ErCiccione> 1. Logs of meetings are not being submitted on getmonero. We miss quite a lot of logs of meeting happened in the last months. If somebody want to help submitting some, that would be very appreciated
<ErCiccione> 2. We really really need people to review pull request on monero-site. Some of my PR are still waiting for a review after more than one month. Some of them are also trivial
<ErCiccione> ^ please take a look and review if you can
<ErCiccione> 3. Two of these PR need to be merged asap because without them i cannot put getmonero on weblate. The PR are:
<ErCiccione> That's it. Please review stuff or the development of the website will be slowed down
<sgp_> thank you
<sgp_> 5. Open ideas time
<sgp_> Just one thing: xenugrande recommended “doing some sort of one day rally as part of the festivities for the yearly Monero anniversary. I received enthusiasm for it to possibly act as a fundraiser for the Monero research team, as well as doing some sort of "black friday" type of event where we would reach out directly to merchants/vendors to coordinate deals for people using Monero.”
<sgp_> Last year we did the online event. We still need to plan that event, so we can make that a community meeting topic or a separate meeting.
<kinghat> vcool UkoeHB_!
<sgp_> Monero's anniversary falls on a Saturday this year, so it's easy to plan
<sgp_> Look for a Moneroversary issue in the next week on the meta repo to collect ideas
<sgp_> Any final essential thoughts?
<sgp_> 6. Confirm next meeting date/time
<sgp_> The next community meeting will be in 2 weeks on 15 February at 17:00 UTC.
<sgp_> The next Coffee Chat is next week on 8 February at 17:00 UTC.
<sgp_> New calendar(mahy now be very temporary haha) (please configure reminders if they don’t copy over!): https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=itmaraubkfoe4aq2oquoaogsuk%40group.calendar.google.com
<sgp_> 7. Conclusion
<sgp_> That’s all! Thanks for attending this Monero Community meeting, and we hope to see you on r/MoneroCommunity and #monero-community. Take care, and know that change starts with YOU.